Both projects suck equally. The python project is much newer (~4 years instead of 12), but the smell is about the same. The problem with new programmers isn't that they pick the wrong object creation patterns, but that they reinvent the wheel and write long stupid functions with horrible nested if/else statements. A former google employee worked on one of the projects, and wrote her own python to json function.

I like python, and I like perl, but the python culture sucks. It has this weird superiority complex where it rejects any external ideas. If I am talking to perl people, and I mention some kick ass python feature that I miss, I either get information as to how it can be done in perl, or interest into why I like it. Around python people, I generally get something like, "well, none of us know perl. Have you tried doing it the python way?"

Moose is awesome, perlbrew is awesome, perl's module culture is awesome. The module culture is the one that annoys me most often. Python programmers don't write as good of tests, or nearly as good of documentation. We still have to run a lot of python 2.4, and a lot of modules claim 2.4 support and then use 2.6+ syntax.

I like python, I think it is a much better matlab, but a lot of its syntax is unintuitive and stupid, and there are some serious cultural issues. Anyone who thinks that it is perfect, or better than another language in every way is holding it back.

But ignoring that; someone who is new to programming is not going to understand the value of any of these concepts anyway, so it doesn't matter that they don't discover them immediately. At about the same time people figure out how to do OO cleanly, they will start hearing about libraries too.

If you were to navigate a largish Perl codebase today, you'd encounter the old-school bless, Moose trickiness, and all kinds of variants on these themes. Extremely clever stuff that Damian Conway would give you a gold star for.

I've worked on a number of post-Moose codebases, and most people did the conversion cleanly and all at once. (I can't explain it, I'm just reporting the facts. I was surprised too.) The biggest Moose-hacking pain point I've seen was someone trying to subclass DateTime with Moose. It just doesn't work very well; DateTime is werid and Moose is weird. (Of course, the solution is delegation rather than subclassing. Even in languages with real OO, you often want a "does X interface by delegating to Y class" rather than "isa Y".)

Sigh, please don't start language wars by stuff like assuming new programmers sits alone in an ivory tower and don't talk to people, read blogs or browse a new book. (Modern Perl discuss Moose before the old standard, for instance.)

Edit: I'm just not going to touch where you assume all Perl teams that write large code bases are too stupid to agree on best practices. (I'll ask this back instead: Why are there so many language wars-lovers in some open source communities...?)

Probably the same reason the French don't like the English or the Indians don't like the Pakistanis. The closer two things are to each other, the more passionate people are about the differences.

My experience is that all the languages are identical. Python has a culture of cleanliness at the core, but there is a lot missing from the language that makes it unclean in practices. (See: the investment bank I worked where all new apps were written in a C#/C++/Python trialect, to coin a new word.) Perl is a very messy language, but the community has hyper-overreacted and have made a very clean set of "best practices". I haven't done much Ruby, but I can't say anything other than that it looks like a combination of Perl and Python, with a relatively new community around it.

These three languages are largely the same thing: they run slow and they're fun to write. Hence all the infighting.

Honestly, I think that the reason is simple: because it's entertaining. Yeah, sometimes I'm tired of reading the same arguments over, and over, and over again. But sometimes, an OP is particularly eloquent in his trashing a language, and I like that, even if the language he's trashing is my favorite.

The same goes with rants. I can't understand people debating over Linus Torvalds rant on C++. Honestly, I found it hilarious and well written. That's it, I'm looking no further because I know that this type of argument has no end.

I would certainly not care to debate the relative merit of my favorite language in one of those troll topics, but I do enjoy reading heated programmers exercising their writing skills against each other.