Any support for open source or cross-platform stuff was a bulwark against claims of monopoly abuse, but none of it worked well enough to be a true replacement. Mono worked for some purposes, but it was far from the first party support cross-platform .NET gets today. Nowadays it sounds like .NET Core + third-party GUI libraries is the way to go.
> Nowadays it sounds like .NET Core + third-party GUI libraries is the way to go.
For reference for those unfamiliar with the terms:
.NET Core was the name given to the cross-platform fork of the .NET runtime.
It was forked out of .NET 4.x and dropped support for a lot of things in the first versions.
It ran on various distributions of Linux and MacOS.
At the same time there were forks of other libraries/frameworks in the .NET ecosystem to have 'Core' variants. Often these were dropping support for legacy parts of their code so that they could run on Core.
Later versions of .NET Core brought over support for a many of the things that had been dropped.
.NET Core and .NET had stand-alone versions until .NET Core was renamed to . NET and became .NET 5.
So, if you want to do the most modern cross-platform C# you would use .NET 9.
More or less. any version of .NET >= 5 is cross-platform and is a direct descendant of the "Core" side of the fork, and so has no "full framework, windows only" variant.
It is "Core" in a lineage sense, but there's no need to make that distinction any more. The term "Core" is out of date, because the experimental "Core" fork succeeded, and became the mainstream.
I've been a long way from Windows development for a while, so missed that shift. I knew it was coming since moving functionality to the open source thing seemed to be Microsoft's target (with some skeptics doubting it, understandably). I didn't know it already happened.
The shift is slow, but it has been ongoing for years, and is pretty much wrapping up now. .NET 5 was released in November, 2020 and that was the "beginning of the end" of the shift over.
For what I do, it's not really "Windows development" in any meaningful way. It is business functionality with HTTP, message queues etc, developed on mostly Windows laptops, and deployed to mostly Linux instances on the cloud. Not that the host OS is something that we have to think about often.
For this, .NET 3.x "the full framework windows only version" services are regarded as very much legacy, and I wouldn't go near one without a plan to migrate to a modern .NET version.
However, YMMV and people are also making windows desktop apps and everything else.
Quantity of languages might be less important than: how many needs are served by those languages, whether the ecosystem is dynamic enough to keep expanding served niches, and whether the culture and community is likely to produce language support for a niche that matters to you ever or on a realistic timeline. The JVM does appear to have a lot more niches covered, but you can still do all the things those languages do in what's available for the CLI.
I don't know much about the current state of CLI and .NET beyond what I've read here, but it sounds like it's dynamic enough to keep expanding. I also don't know enough about the long tail of niche languages supported by each to know which direction they're headed.
That's the situation with the tools used for music production. In theory, any DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) can make any kind of music. In practice, they all move toward different kinds of music, and you'll run into increasing friction as you do weirder or more complex stuff if you pick the wrong DAW. Cubase can do electronic music, but you're better off with FL Studio or Live. Live and FL Studio can do orchestral, but you're better off with Cubase.
And I'd guess there's a similar dynamic with CLI and JVM and the languages that target them.
It's a fork with a lot of modifications (mostly removing deprecated stuff and making it cross-platform). You can still see a lot of ancient stuff in the sources such as referring to the base Object class as "COM+ object" (.NET was originally envisioned as a successor to COM).
>An early name for the .NET platform, back when it was envisioned as a successor to the COM platform (hence, "COM+"). Used in various places in the CLR infrastructure, most prominently as a common prefix for the names of internal configuration settings. Note that this is different from the product that eventually ended up being named COM+.
Correct, the bytecode wasn't even 1:1 compatible. They then brought over missing pieces, and consolidated .NET Framework features into .NET Core, thus becoming just .NET to end the dumb naming war, since everyone calls it .NET anyway...
Good write up that wonderfully encapsulates how stupid Microsoft’s naming is - you didn’t even mention .NET standard.
I love .NET. It’s a great stack, especially for backend web apps. Blazor is a great SPA framework too. But I loathe how Microsoft continue to handle just about everything that isn’t the framework and C# / F#. It’s laughable.
Oh don’t get me wrong - I wasn’t criticising your write up. It was concise and still relevant.
It’s just funny for newcomers to peel back the onion more. Writing a source generator? Target .NET standard 2.0 (not even 2.1) for a whole host of reasons.
The ".NET" label was applied to a bunch of things at Microsoft.
It was also an early name given to their social networking / IM things.
But for the last 20-ish years it's really only been applied to things related to the .NET Framework.
So, yes - Visual Basic.NET is a language - it's the language that replaced Visual Basic 6. It compiles to the Intermediate Language (IL) that the Common Language Runtime (CLR) executes. There are other languages that compile to IL, too like C#, F#.
The .NET Framework is really a bunch of libraries and tools that are packaged together.
The .NET Standard is a standard that allows you to build a library to a known set of supported libraries and IL / CLR features.
So, yes, depending on which specific part you're referring to - it's all of those.
The "Xbox Series X" is such a nonsensical name that only a marketing department could come with it. And this entire line of names exists solely because someone thought that nobody would buy a "Xbox 2" instead of a "PlayStation 3".
Because X's mean moar marketing power... Like the Extreme X870E X motherboard... There's multiple X's and Extremes and the X's mean extreme... so it's moar extreme!!!
Among the other small nits in your otherwise concise post... the windows only versions of .NET (1-4) were known as .NET Framework. So, Framework is the only windows only version, followed by Core being a limited feature set but cross platform and then .NET 5 (no suffix) being a full featured version that is cross platform.
I'd argue that the dominance of Linux on cloud and Azure growing business is what's causing Microsoft to have an ongoing interest in linux support.
A factoid that's shared sometimes (no idea if true) is that Microsoft now employs more Linux kernel engineers than Windows kernel engineers due to Azure.
That came after. Linux wasn't even on 2.6 with its famous stability yet when this kicked off. What you see now is a result. They softened on open source as they realized it actually has some benefits for a company like Microsoft.
The Microsoft of the Halloween Documents[0] is a different Microsoft from the one we see today that understands open source as something good rather than as a threat, and it started with Microsoft being forced to play nice.
After having gouged Red Hat and Suse for years with their bogus Linux patent racket and bankrolling the infamous SCO Unix lawsuit. Make no mistake M$ coming over all We Love Linux was like Donald Trump turning up at the DNC.
I do remain skeptical that the node on the Microsoft org chart that usually strangles anything good the companies does is waiting to strike. It used to be Windows node, but now it seems like the ad node comes in for the kill most of the time. The company is slowly morphing into Google as Google morphs into Amazon, while Amazon is morphing into UPS.
Off-topic but to join in the general good vibes this announcement emanates: i have to say that my experience using Azure cloud has been stellar. Their co-pilot integration works well, IME. Azure shell is simple and good. Dashboard UI is always good.
Bona fides: I have used GCP for 3 years, AWS for 3 years, and Azure for ~ 1 year. As well as the more "bare-metal" types of cloud providers like Linode/Akamai, and Vultr -- all the latter of which are great for self managing your infra.
I also really find the ability to spin up Windows Server and Windows 10/11 etc super useful for builds, testing, Hyper-V.
I really like Azure for huge projects with many moving parts.
More like it was shoring up for developers who use and/or target mac and linux. Many devs are using macs and targetting linux for deployments. MS wants Azure to be a first class option for developers and is the focus for making money going forward. It makes sense for their developer tools to offer that.
Azure didn't exist. OS X had just come out and almost no one took Macs seriously as a development target yet. Windows was the only user-facing thing anyone developed for aside from little Java games on flip phones. The Web 2.0 takeover was still years off and Internet Explorer ran the show.
Is "historical context" not as clear as I thought? You're the second person to challenge this by pointing out the current situation when I'm talking about how we got here.
Then you're not talking about what I was talking about in the post you replied to with a framing that suggested you were disagreeing. Did you click the wrong reply link?
Mono implemented the GUI stuff like Windows Forms, do the latest windows cross platform stuff support that? Can you run .Net GUI windows program on linux without Mono but using the latest .Net thing ? I know it was not possible in the past.
The whole point of .NET-Core was to remove all the (largely desktop-oriented) platform-specific dependencies that tied it to Windows, so you could run server-oriented .net programs on Linux. So no, afaik you can't simply run GUI apps built with .Net on Linux desktops - that's the reason Mono wasn't simply killed, because it covers that niche (which wouldn't even exist, were it not for Mono/Xamarin's efforts back then. But I digress...). Nowadays there are a few other attempts at providing that UI layer.
.net Core still has Windows Forms thoguh? At least I (for kicks) migrated one of my old .net 4.something projects to .net core and it still works and shows the classic Windows Forms GUI.
.Net Core on Windows has support for loading assemblies that reference COM interfaces and the win32 API, along with other things that aren’t supported elsewhere like C++/CLI.
That’s why loading System.Windows.Forms still works, it’s not part of .Net 5+, but it can still load the assemblies on Windows (they still use GDI, etc under the hood).
Sure, nobody wants to write Winforms new applications today
My point is about running existing applications on Linux,
there are still issues with running .Net GUI stuff under wine and Mono was not a perfect implementation.
I read in other comments that the newer .Net cross platform stuff is not a replacement for Mono for running this old applications. (nobody will rewrite them to use the current GUI stuff from MS since are old apps)
No, Microsoft's .NET only supports WinForms on Windows. They do have an official cross platform GUI toolkit in MAUI, but it strangely does not support Linux.
Last I knew it is also considered pretty lackluster. Every time I read up on it it feels like, even beyond the lack of Linux support people just don't care for it.
If I was building a cross platform native app with .NET I'd probably use Avalonia right now.
Yeah, the took an age delivering it, then it came out and most of the early reports were “It’s still not ready.” and then I think Microsoft just gave up.
I think not supporting Linux was a tactical error, though. Some people will put up with a lot for Linux GUI support, and some of those people are the types who can resolve problems with your half-baked GUzi framework.
Does it really need help? I struggle to imagine a scenario where one would consider MAUI not supporting Linux to be an issue (if we discard superficial bad faith concern) when Avalonia, Uno or, if you care about Linux as the main target, Gir.Core exist.
And, at the end of the day, you have a tool with an extremely rich FFI capability so whatever is available from C you can use as well.
Sorry I clearly was not clear enough. I mean specifically an issue with MAUI itself. I agree dotnet/c# have some solid UI options cross platform at this point. MAUI however seems to be at best a mess and at worst dead in the water.
> "The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed."
Were I live and work (IT and consulting in central south-east Norway) it has been the year of the Linux Desktop on and off since 2009.
That was the first time I worked full time at a place that deployed Linux for everyone and everything that didn't have a verified reason for needing Windows.
I think we had one 3rd party trading software running on a Windows machine and maybe the CEO and someone in accounting got Windows.
Everyone else was upgraded to Linux and it worked beatifully. It was my job to support the sales department with desktop related issues and it was absolutely no problem to do it while also being a productive developer.
Since then I have not worked on a place that required Linux, but I think most of the places I have worked on since has had Linux as an option as long as you supported it yourself, and some places also have been very active writing how-tos and working with me to troubleshoot issues that were related to Linux, since many of them were also Linux users.
At the moment I use Mac, but at my current job I'm also allowed to use Linux.
Open Source Support reasons. If Linux developers want better MAUI support there is a "Community Repo" to contribute to and help move things further along. The impression is that if things were further along it might get formally "adopted" (by the Dotnet Foundation) for "official" out-of-the-box "support", but it isn't far enough along and doesn't seem to have enough contributors with enough momentum. It currently seems that the Venn Diagram of "Developers that say they want MAUI support for Linux" and "Developers that would contribute to Linux support for MAUI" has too small of an intersection.
Sure, Microsoft could pay more employees to work on it faster, but Linux loves and prefers open source from Linux devs "untainted by Microsoft", right?
Contribute to the Maui backend for GTK and/or Qt, nothing is stopping you
Alternatively, just because you're on .NET doesn't mean you need to use Microsoft sanctioned UI toolkits, just as C++ has no "official" UI toolkit. You're free to pick up some GTK or Qt bindings if you want a native feeling and your application is already architectures correctly. Alternatively, throw Imgui at it if you just need dev tooling, or maybe try other cross platform toolkits in the ecosystem like Avalonia or Uno
It is not perfect, there are issue depending if you need 32 or64 bits or if you need .net4 or greater. Games work but I have issues running tools like mod managers, game save cleners that are made with .net . In my case Sims3 works fine but not the Sims3 Launcher(this tools has more features then just launching the game like importing custom content/mods )
Sadly some Java tools stopped working if you run latest Java runtime because for some reason some crap was removed from Java and nobody made some easy way to add them back with soem package install.
With commercial applications that want to just take their existing code and have it run on Linux with only a couple lines changed, Avalonia XPF will do that
You are expected to use Avalonia or Uno for multi-platform targeting or Gir.Core (GTK4) or one of the many other binding libraries for Linux-specific GUI.
Also very easy to throw something together on top of SDL2 with Silk.NET.
Practically speaking it is in a much better place than many languages considered by parts of Linux community to be more """linux-oriented""".
My personal use case is running old GUI apps, I am not planning on writing GUI apps with .Net , MS had the opportunity to open source .Net/Silverlight and make money from tools but they bet on Windows and today most apps are node and javascript, a much inferior platform but MS open things up too late.
No, they pretty much gave up on winforms when .net core morphed into "the" .net that is cross platform. There are some nice crossplatform gui libs now though.
If true this would be huge. I got burned on the whole silverlight, Universal Windows Platform, WPF etc. All these new and improved solutions had all sorts of issues, no designer, no or weaker accessibility stories, bloated, slow etc etc.
C# + Winforms would be appealing. Some of the performance with larger datasets in the new solutions (tables etc) was just surprising. I really feel like Microsoft got so distracted chasing phones, tables, touch etc they forget just basic line of business application development which they could and should have owned.
.net Core doesn't supply WinForms, but WPF is the far more common paradigm for Windows apps now. WPF is supported by projects like Avalonia on Linux. There are also a few other major alternative UI toolkits, more commonly used by cross-platform (vs Windows-exclusive) developers.
This is the "virtual monorepo", if you want to clone one repo and build the entire SDK product then this is the correct thing to checkout - but development work right now still happens in the separate project repos, of which there are ~20
No it's way better than Flutter. Avalonia really works on desktop.. :). Also the model is WPF so whoever know a little bit of legacy .NET framework will be able to write Avalonia apps in no-time
I don't know any .net, and have never heard of this until now. Only stories with comments on HN are from eight years ago. Although I liked the screenshots on the linked site, it doesn't seem to have much buzz around it.
And unfortunately, the only stench I can't stand more than Google's is Microsoft's.
I do not follow buzz. I am an engineer by education and attitude and always try to investigate my options based on my needs and requirements. I use buzz only to drive me trough my investigations. In my case I had a desktop application that had to run on Windows and MacOs and needed support for Rich text format and rendering of custom graphs.
Following buzz I started to do a prototype with Flutter and stopped after a few days as I found out that most of the open source controls I was using had bugs on Windows Desktop. Then I moved to MAUI and discovered that in order to have some decent Rich Text support my only option was Blazor Hybdrid. Nedless to say I found bugs that prevented my prototype to work correctly. Then I moved to UNO and found that it doesn't have full Rich text format support. I was able to find some .NET open source libraries for doing text layout on Skia and with that I was able to find a partial solution that was however pretty complicated. Out of curiosity I investigated Avalonia and found that everything that I needed had full support. Being fluent in WFP I built the prototype in 3 days and I never looked back.
Your experience might vary depending on your fluency of WFP but I found that, considering Windows Desktop as a target platform, Flutter and MAUI are absolutely the worst options.
In my opinion Uno is better than Avalonia when considering web application support but Avalonia has more coverage of the WPF api with respect to what Uno does for WinUi. And for sure marketing is the worst part of Avalonia while it is the BEST for MAUI and Flutter.
BUT
That's now officially unsupported as all of Xamarin Forms is no longer supported and the MAUI replacement doesn't cover Linux nor does that look likely (MAUI is mired deep in problems due over-ambition, failure to resource and it seems a significant push in MS to use MAUI Hybrid aka web UIs within native apps).
Yes. There are multiple UI projects that build on the WinUI 3 components in the Win App SDK.
There's the first party MAUI which is an updated version of Xamarin Forms. The two best-known third-party implementations are AvaloniaUI and Uno. I prefer Uno, it has more cross-platform targets.
Which lets you run Blazor (web framework) like a desktop UI across all major desktop platforms. Microsoft has MAUI/Blazor as a thing, but only targets Mac and Windows ATM, so Photino bridges the gap for Linux.
Photino lets you use anything other than just .NET but has pretty decent .NET support.
(i hardly know what i'm talking about so somebody else may have a better idea, but i'm here now so)
mingw is a GNU's header/library environment (tools too maybe?) to create windows compatible applications. So I'd look into searching mingw .net and/or mingw mono.
also, ask your favorite AI, they're good at this type of question so long as it's not up to the minute news
You can install at the link below, and then making a project is just `dotnet new console` and run with `dotnet run`
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/install/linux